What is the experience of creating a business and selling it before the age of 40? Dave Valentine and entrepreneur Janice Townsend sit down to discuss what it’s like feeling like a beginner again after stepping out of an owner/founder role. Selling a business is a big deal, and there’s a mental adjustment required in the transition between being the head of a company and a young retiree. Janice often gets asked, “What’s next?” Our goal is to help you prepare for your “what’s next”. Welcome to the InWork Podcast.
Dave Valentine 0:08
I am so excited for you all to listen to the conversation that I had with Janice Townsend, Janice is a long time friend. She and I and my wife and her husband, Matt have known each other for 13 years now 1213 years. And Janice is a serial entrepreneur, she launched a coffee shop. Oh man back in 2010 2011. I think it was 2010. And she built it up, she had different variations of it, she tried to franchise it, she opened second locations, third locations, she stopped franchising, then she started coming back to
a firmer ground where she could have more control and have a second location. She's built up buildings, and she started other ventures, and she's done all sorts of things. And then just last August, she sold two of her businesses. And so she's kind of like out she, she'd gotten out of some of the other businesses, and she's totally out now. And so I love this conversation, I got to have it in person. And it was a beautiful moment to reconnect with her. And it's a very honest conversation. And this is really why I started this podcast, is because in work is about the things that we do in work to be successful. But it's also about the inner work that we must do, in order to be our full selves be our whole selves, and also to find success. It's really fascinating to me, I've seen over and over and over again, there are people that can reach really high heights, and then they come tumbling down because they haven't done the inner work. And Janice has in this conversation. Not only does she tell us what she's been up to since August, but she also gives us an insight into the benefits and the challenges of selling your companies. And she gives us a really good picture into what our lives can be like when we start to do that inner work as business owners, and I'm so excited for you to meet her. So without further ado, let's get to the chat with Janice.
So
how's life you're like, I mean, like literally, you've had your whole life change? I mean, you you've sold
the building, you sold the business, the coffee shops, and then you moved your house and like
Janice Townsend 2:49
so in a very mild year.
Dave Valentine 3:02
How's retired life.
Janice Townsend 3:06
It doesn't feel like retired life, I think
it's really weird to have something doesn't feel like retired life because like, or
because I know, I'm going to be something else. So it feels like a pause like,
Dave Valentine 3:18
Okay, do you have like, Do you have a time horizon? Or is it just like, whenever I feel inspired? Mostly whenever I feel inspired, but I think I think it's gonna be sooner rather than later.
Really, do you have like, do you have ideas or like, Ooh,
Janice Townsend 3:34
I do have ideas. But I'm giving myself lots of time and space to decide if it's just interesting today ever, it's gonna be interesting for a long time. So kind of letting the ideas pass passed by me. And if it stays interesting, then I'll explore it a little more. And also realizing that it might be a lot of little things, and not just one big thing.
Dave Valentine 3:56
So what are like? Okay, so that's really interesting.
Well, I think, look, most people,
you know, before they turn 40, don't sell a business, let alone a business in a building. Like, no, that's pretty. I mean, I know that you just think it's normal. And I'm doing the same, but like I was doing. Yeah.
But I also think that it's pretty unique. We talked about this the other day. But I think it's really unique that you have a time and space before you
are even in like middle age.
Janice Townsend 4:33
Thank you. Yeah. You're welcome.
Dave Valentine 4:37
That you get to like explore these ideas. And
I know that so many of I mean, you and I've had many seasons together.
Where we've been super stressed out by our businesses and stuff and like to just take a pause.
Janice Townsend 4:54
Yeah, I think it brings you like face to face with the event.
Talking your whole life. But if I only had time I would do this, this, this and this. Yeah. And then when you finally have time, you're kind of forced to reckon with do I actually want to do that thing I said, I really wanted to do if I only have time, because I think we're actually pretty comfortable in our busyness. And when we finally slow down, it's pretty uncomfy. And like, No one told me that like trying new things was going to be uncomfortable. Because I was really, I was like, pretty good at what I did before. And I had
some success and like some a little bit that some people knew who I was, it was this lovely feeling. And then you drop all that and you're trying new things for the first time. And like, you're kind of bad at new things when you first try them. So it's like this very humbling experience of oh, I'm a beginner again, like, I have to
know anything about this new thing. And so I'm starting from scratch.
And it's fun. It's a new skill, and it's sure to try something new. But it's also like, Man, I used to be good at something. And now I'm just okay at a couple of things. Yeah.
Yeah. So it's kind of a strange thing to happen when you're in your late 30s. So, you said that you think it's more challenging it we've become accustomed to like our pattern of going and going.
Dave Valentine 6:24
When did you first experience the like, Hey, I'm not going and going. And oh, now, shit. Now what? Yeah, I think
Janice Townsend 6:36
it took me about, we sold the business. We sold the building that happened within like, four or five days, which was not planned. That just happened. And then we left five days later on a one month road trip. And we just left. Yeah, wonderful. We spent time with y'all.
Southwest. Yeah. And when we got home, that's when it was like, oh, and so the first week home, I cleaned out every closet in my house and cleaned up the pantry and deep cleaned everything. And I was like, okay, the house is clean. Everything's goodwill. No, no, I don't have any projects anymore. And I didn't, other than like, wrapping up a couple of things for the business. I didn't have work. And so I had to start on more of a creative path. It's like, okay, what is this next chapter look like? And when you tell people in your life, like, oh, I sold my business. The first question is, what are you doing now? And I was Oh, interesting. Yeah, yeah. And the people that get it are like, when you say nothing. They're like, Oh, yeah, that's so good. Good free to write. But then people that don't get it are like, Oh, why don't people get that? Like, is it that they don't? I mean, I'm asking you to speculate. And you may know, I mean, I don't know. Did you ask people like if they don't get it? Like, why don't they understand? I didn't ask, but I assume it's because we tie so much of our identity to what we do. Yeah. And it's really hard to find common ground with someone when they don't do anything anymore. Like, like when I would tell people Oh, I own a coffee shop. I'm like, Oh, my God, I love coffee. Have you been to the shop? Which app do you own? There was always like another question. conversation starter. Yeah. But when you tell people like I just sold my business, and now I'm just exploring what's next. Or I one time said, I'm following my creativity. And I remember someone stared at me like, are you okay?
Like, there's something wrong with me. So well, and I think that it's interesting, because you and I have, you have similar upbringings in religious communities and trauma from that. And then we have similar journeys in like, our post what we're up to, but I think it's that whole thing of like, yeah, we you are actually embodying being a human being
human doing right.
Dave Valentine 8:49
And I but I, that's really interesting, you know, thinking about round us has you talked about doing in New York in the 60s before I think before he met my Rajan
in 67, but maybe it was after but they had these B ends. Did you ever hear him talking about this? So okay, so so they, you're gonna love this.
So, so they had this idea, they're like, we're gonna do it on Easter Sunday in Central Park, and we're just going to do a be in and they talked with he like, talked with
somebody from the Parks and Rec Department. And she was like, how many people are expecting? And they said, 10,000, which they ended up having, like, 15,000 It was nuts. Right? And they were like, she goes, you know, we can have this Easter egg hunt for the kids. And we can have this concert over here for the adults when all this stuff and he's like, No, it's a be in, like, we're not going to entertain ourselves. We're just going to be and she just didn't have like a category or box for that idea. And she's like, Well, what did
They're gonna do like all these people, what are they gonna do? And he's like, we're just gonna be
it freaks you out, you know? And like, they really couldn't get it.
Because it's so different. And I think that is kind of like what you're up to. It's like, so unique. Yeah, no, I'm just just being just hanging.
Janice Townsend 10:21
Yeah, about after about four months, I realized I needed a little bit of form for my, oh, really, to help kind of hold in my formlessness. Like, I needed like, Okay, I need something that on this day, I show up, and I do this thing. And like, I need a little bit of structure in my life. Yeah, the, it was really good to have the unstructured time for a while, just do what I want to do and see people and catch up with people and read books and write and do all of that. But after a while, it's like, I need it. I need something. And so it's like, but I can still continue to explore my curiosity. And so took a pottery class, and a yoga teacher training and I'm just like, learning more about things that are interesting to me. So what's um,
Dave Valentine 11:04
I feel like this has been like a, just, you and me like talking on the phone video chatting with your hubby and my wife and everything. It's I feel like
this has been a season where you're seeing through
so much of like, the cultural stories we've been told. And
I know that before you sold, that building in the business, you were meditating, you were reading you were doing like, spiritual practices to keep you grounded. Yes. And you feel complete, like just being in your house for the past few days. You feel totally different. Grounded wise, like you're a different version of Jan, in like a very cool way than I've ever experienced before. You just, it feels like you're breathing
really calmly. Do you feel that on the inside? Or is that just am I projecting?
Janice Townsend 11:59
No, I feel that a little bit. And I think part of it is I don't have to be anything for anyone right now. No one's relying on me to be boss or to be a leader or to be, you know, showing up in a certain way for the community. And I'm just existing right now. I'm not really like, having to be anything for anyone. Yeah, it's like taking a lot of the pressure off like, I yeah, I can, if I want to take a day and just stay home all day, I can do that. Like I was sick recently. And I was able to just be home and rest. And I didn't have to cancel things and get people to cover ships and like, work while I was trying to recover. Like it's just a different level of exhaling. Yeah, peacefulness
when you don't have 1,000,001 things going on.
i Yeah. I would agree with that. I feel a lot more at ease a lot more settled.
Dave Valentine 12:52
That's such a an, I wonder if and you may not have this? Is there a thing? Because you again, you haven't even been doing this for a year. So it's not like we do it a long time. And I need to remind myself of that.
Yeah. But that's still eight months longer than most people that are like listening or watching or whatever. Is there a thing? When you think for yourself, that you would go back and be like, if you could go talk to Jan, from two years ago? Is there something that you have learned in the past eight months that you would be like, Hey, I'm going to impart this wisdom to
me, there doesn't have to be I'm just curious. Because, again, it is a cool thing you got going? I don't know. I think it's like,
Janice Townsend 13:37
the things that fall away and become unimportant. I didn't think that would happen so quickly. Oh, like, because my life was totally wrapped up in this business in this building and getting it all to work. And yeah, getting, making it the best place to work possible and supporting everyone. And you know, like, being the boss lady. And like, I was surprised how quickly all of that fell away. And I just didn't care anymore after I sold and it was like, I cared. But like, I realized it wasn't my responsibility more. And I think accepting that like, the nature of like this change. Yeah. Like, that's been the biggest lesson. And also, like, acknowledging, whenever there's a change, there's always a little bit of grief.
Yeah, so it's a little bit of like, oh, like Sunday's, I missed that. I missed the busyness and I missed the purpose. And I missed the community. And, you know, like, doesn't mean it all just went away. Right.
But yeah, I think there's that changes, good changes, necessary changes natural and that holding on too long to a good thing is not helpful. Yeah, right. Right. And so if you feel like the time when something has passed, it's time to let go and try something new and not excited anymore.
Dave Valentine 14:54
You touched on this briefly. How has the extricating yourself
from identifying with the doer or the business owner, like the person that's well respected because you've created jobs, and when they see your back, like, how, what's that experience been like for you? I think it's really taught me like
Janice Townsend 15:17
that I'm very lucky to have the people in my life or in my life, because they care about me, Janice as a human, and not about me, Janice, the business owner, me, Janice, that does this thing or whatever. And so it's just been interesting to see the people that have stuck around and the people that haven't. Yeah.
So that's been interesting. But
other than that, I don't
I don't know, like, how is my identity changed, or?
Dave Valentine 15:44
I mean, I would be interested in that, too. But I mean, I think that it's something that that I have recognized in myself, is like, the
way that I tie my identity, to the narratives that other people have put around me. Successful business owner makes money does, you know, like, and I, in my own process of like, selling more than half the businesses that I own right now. I'm just like, Hmm, that's gonna be an interesting identity to like, not have for that, you know, and, and
I'll still own some other ones, but it won't.
Like the biggest ones are going to be go. Yeah. So it'll be it'll be a very different vibe. And I'm just curious what that looks like for you.
Janice Townsend 16:37
Yeah, I think it's like, who is your like, forced to reckon with who is the you behind the you that you've projected for everyone to see the world? And so, yeah, it's like, who am I without this thing that's been for me most of my adult life, I've owned this business and have this
kind of no way of being in the world.
And so I've had to, like really come to terms with okay, it's just Janice enough life
is Janice without, you know, this idea of success to this idea of like doing a big thing. Like I said, a lot of people expected like, oh, the only reason you're leaving behind this big thing is to do something even bigger. It's like, no, the reason I'm leaving it behind this are like my health and sanity and, you know, to like, have a good life.
So yeah, I don't, I don't know. It's definitely fundamentally changed. And I think I've had to accept, yeah, this is who you are. Without that. Yeah. And I remember having this thought, like some sometime in the middle of like, selling the business, like, okay, at the time, we were thinking about moving and, or buying a house, like in a really magical place, and the whole thing, and I was thinking, Man, you sell your business, you're gonna move across the country, we're gonna be in this beautiful house. And there you are. Right, so we're gonna be you. Even if you get everything you want, it's gonna be you. And so have you made peace with you? Do you? Right? And so that was, I don't know, you can change the environment, you can change the packaging, you can change whatever but the end of the day, it's just you there. And you're the only one you got so
Dave Valentine 18:15
yeah, I think that that's like one of the
the challenging things about anything where you're like, Well, when I do this thing, yes, then everything's gonna be okay. It's like no, you just created new problems for yourself.
And it's sometimes like you're ready for the new problems just like I'm done having this been my problem. And
and I've I've that's when I knew it was like time to sell I was like, I'm done having these be problems and I'm more interested in having new problems you know, and so
yeah, and if you think about it like that, and you're like, This is not my salvation. Yeah.
Janice Townsend 18:54
It can't be right. Because we all do that is like putting projecting our future or happiness into the future when I get this or when I with this person, or when I have this space or when I have this job or this notoriety or whatever fill in the blank thing then I'll be happy fulfilled good, whatever content but the reality is is like if you can't be that already chasing after some elusive thing isn't gonna help you.
Dave Valentine 19:24
I'm interested for you to talk about because there was there was certainly a time in the many years that we've known each other that you were really pushing hard and for Halo top and open up more locations of the coffee shop. Let's franchise lets you know like there was a real like drive and, and will domination sort of feel and you guess it wasn't bad. It was good. It was good. And, and there was also the season where were you and Matt both really pursued like how
Only other businesses can we put our fingers in, and kind of like wrapper and it was, it was not out of it didn't feel like it was out of anything that you were trying to, like make yourself whole. It almost felt like it was just like, you're following your curiosity. You were trying to figure out like, what? How big? How far like how much space you wanted to take up. But it feels like that journey has been had tried. I looked over the edge because you did some expansions for real? And then you're like, I'm not this. Yeah, I think for a while I actually did feel like I had something to prove.
Janice Townsend 20:41
Hard, really? Yeah. And I was like, if we can grow and grow and grow and be this big thing. And then I kind of realized that wasn't the way I operated. And that was gonna be like was and so it took like a reckoning of like, No, you're more of a relational community person, you're not a big, giant openness, location, that location, you don't know your staff and all that, like, that's not who I am. And I figured that out over the course of some bad decisions. But I figured it out. And I'm thankful for that. But then I think maybe it was the pandemic. And when the pandemic happened, it was, first of all, I had to reckon with what if we lose everything? Because that was on the table? And everybody I mean, I, yeah, I did. We didn't know we didn't know didn't know there was gonna be all of the relief money we ended up. It was gonna eventually fizzle out. I mean, we had we had, we had clients just dropped like flux. I mean, like, overnight, people were like, I don't know, if I'm gonna pay my bills next month. I'm certainly not gonna pay you. Like, whoa, wait, contracts. They're like, we don't care. Oh,
yeah, we went, I mean, we went to take out on like, overnight, right? I mean, our sales dropped to 25% of what they were for about two months. And it was like, Oh, we have to furlough stuff. And you know, and everyone's complaining about being bored at home. And I was running all over creation and just trying to survive, and trying to keep my businesses alive, or trying to keep my staff paid, and you know, all the things. But once all that settle down, and it was just like, okay, like, we're here and we can't do anything, right. I think I kind of realized, like, what's important? And I realized, like, I've been doing a lot of things just because I didn't want to miss out on something good. Yeah. But when everyone was home doing nothing significant, okay. Like, I kind of like this, I kind of like doing less and kind of like not being in 15 places a day, I kind of like this feeling. And yeah, I think that kind of informed the next step, which is making new domain to own coffee shops, maybe right, just want to be and you want to write and you want to be home, and you want to be outside more,
travel more, and you know, all of those things. So
Dave Valentine 22:58
I really appreciate it. I don't think that you and I have talked about this enough. But I'm
really interested in your response. You mentioned like, Hey, you realize that you're more of a community builder and less of a like, let's make this really expansive and domination. Yeah. And, and I think that that's, you know, it's interesting, I was talking with our friend, Nathan, today at an event and
he was talking about something similar of like, you have to know yourself enough for your business to like, because you can have a great idea. But it's not for you to go execute on. Yes. And, and someone else may not have any ideas, and it may be that idea that they should pick up. And so I'm curious, like, what's your? What is your practice for self understanding? Like, what do you you know, I mean, we've talked about so good idea. No, no, just like,
I think it's very insightful that you went, you know, my thing is building community. Like, that's what I want to do. And I want to create and build community that way.
And most people that I talked to don't have those sorts of insights on themselves. And I'm just curious, like, what is your practice to get there?
Janice Townsend 24:14
Oh, interesting. Um,
I don't know if I have a practice together. I think I've just learned who I am over the years. And I think she thinks just like, I think I'm the franchising thing really taught me some lessons about this, who you are. And I realized, like, one franchise, and we're on the verge of opening a second, and I realized I want to be a franchise owner, you kind of have to, like force your will on people, you keep the brand cohesive, you just can't let people do what they want. You can't let people follow their passions. And like, it doesn't really work to have a community coffee shop. That's franchise because
it's so very specific to the community and it has to change and kind of ebb and flow a little bit for that community. And so we like
Let one franchise go. And then the other one, I just, I cut them free. And I was like offensive what with you, you can be your own coffee shop. But this is not a good model for me because I'm not going to tell you what to do with your business. That's not who I am. And I remember that was a hard decision to make, because it was very, like, I felt like I was taking steps backwards. And I had told all these people opening this other location. But once you make peace with like anyone funeral care, they might care for like three minutes, but then it's fine. And they might ask you a question about it. And you can just say, you know, and that wasn't for us. And that's okay. And like, you know, what, do you want an explanation, right? And so it's okay to do what's right for you, right, and what's right for your business. And so that was probably one of the better decisions I've made.
But yeah, I don't know, I just decided I don't need to be what everyone else thinks I should be. I can be what I want to be. And maybe that's a lesson that just comes with doing it for a while or seeing seeing people do it ways you don't want to do it, or self realization of Oh, this isn't working for me. I'm missing?
I don't I don't know.
Dave Valentine 26:04
When you think about you know, because you you started your first coffee shop and
10?
Janice Townsend 26:11
09
Dave Valentine 26:15
right in that sweet spot of recession.
You know, I know you like
every other entrepreneur that I've ever talked to, is like fighting to survive,
you know?
And there's a certain level of like, you just do what you have to do to make it work. Oh, yeah.
But I think that it's interesting, because you were able to get enough success that you were like, I don't have to do that anymore.
And you did you did, like do sorts of like crazy things are in 2020? Because you're like, oh, yeah, we all did. Yeah, I mean, it's just, it was just the time. And at this point, you're just like, I mean, I don't need to do the crazy thing anymore.
Janice Townsend 26:58
Yeah, I can. Which is weird, because, like fight or flight, like just work, work, work, work, work, work, work. And then when you're ready to work a little bit more and fight to make it work. And I don't know, if something changed. And we had a little a little bit of a break. I think before the pandemic, things were kind of smooth, and the business was making money and like people were happy. And then we decided to open the second business. And it was like, oh, and build a huge commercial building. And that added the stress on again. And then after let's see three months after we open the second location and the commercial building the pandemic hit, right. So it was this whole reallocation of, oh, we thought this was gonna be this way. And it's actually this way. And it's supposed to be like, we're working towards this goal and numbering, how will the success and then it was? Oh, no, we might lose it all. You know, we were really close to losing it all multiple times. Which is not good feeling. Um, no, but we worked really hard to, to stay afloat. And like, Matt, I mean, Matt, like, with that building, he did so much work himself because we ran out of money. Yeah, we ran out of money to build it. So he had to finish things. He built the stairs, and he wired the nuts, built the cabinetry and installed
and built the bar. And like, because we have to, there was no other option. Right? We had to make it work. And so I think it's really easy to look at someone who's like, maybe met some success now, right? And be like, Oh, come on, that they're only three, whatever, right? And it's like, Oh, you didn't see, you know, the ADR weeks and the 100 hour weeks and all the time and, and also how we almost lost it all so many times so many times. Well, that's and I think that business owners and entrepreneurs will talk about that enough. Like there have been times where I was like, I like Yeah, time. Yeah, I mean, like we, you know, like most people, would we we had a really kick in business and 2019 2020 hit and it was like, oh, no, and we really didn't. Yeah, I mean, like, and we really didn't see it pick up again until January, February of 21. And then it was like, oh, and now we're on a rocket ship. And then it was like crazy. But the
Dave Valentine 29:20
but it always happens. Like you always get to the end, even though the people that are like, Oh, I just went from here to success. And it's like that's not real. That's a lot more slow and steady.
Janice Townsend 29:31
It kind of sneaks up on you sometimes I think it's like, oh, it's actually working. Now. How did that happen? Yeah, it's weird when it works. Like
you're like Well hang on a second. Well, I also think that there's that thing to where it's like the the overnight success it's like every band that we've ever really loved. Like they played in dank coffee shops and basement bars and like people talking over them all night.
Dave Valentine 29:54
Yeah. And like no one cared and then they released an EP and that
they'd already released multiple albums, and they were small releases, but they released an EP and somebody listened to it. And then it got on to a TV show. And then boom. I mean, I remember that happening with the civil wars. Like, I saw them at jammin Java with Rachel, when,
you know, it was like a venue that seats 100 people. And they were the opener and there were 50 people there. And the people that played after them were not our favorites. But like, no one knew they were and then no joke. Like, less than a year later, eight, nine months later, they had a song and Grey's Anatomy and Grey's Anatomy was like, massive at the time. And they went from playing in these tiny venues playing in massive ridiculous.
Yeah. Which is I mean, 1000s of people there. Yeah. I mean, so it's like weird, because it's the same with entrepreneurship. And we like, well, that's dip this is different. We just worked really hard. And it's like, well, the the guys in the band worked really hard to. And there's one of the things that I've talked about with a lot of entrepreneurs is I'm like, How many of you? Like how many businesses do you think do a million dollars plus in a year.
And I hear like crazy numbers are like 50% of people that businesses are like 80%. And these are always people that are not doing a million, and like, it's only 7% of all businesses in the country ever, ever do a million dollars? And they're like, what? And I'm again, it's way smaller, depending on your industry. Oh, yeah. You know, we never had that with two shops. Yeah. And it's like, but you had two fully functioning shops. And they were like, you know, yeah.
But the reality is, like, we see,
we see the real golden assholes. They're like, this is my private jet. And this is not Ducati. And that's like, okay, cool, man, you know, and,
but that's not real real is like, Hey, I put together this small boutique firm, whatever we do one and a half million a year. And yeah, if you're doing one and a half million, it's like, yeah, you're probably in the top 7% of all businesses in the country. That's nuts. Like, it's a big deal.
Janice Townsend 32:15
And then the food industry and just to be profitable at all is kind of an anomaly. I think people don't realize that either. Because they're buying these $7 coffees and thinking like, oh, man, they must be raking it in. But the food industry is notoriously hard and difficult. And like, yeah, most people aren't they're not turning a profit. They're barely breaking even, which is why restaurant under Services stressed out. That's true. I mean, yeah, and we, I mean, we have an agency that does like design and social media and stuff is one of the agencies that I own, and they work with a brew pub. And they are one of the anomalies of like, but they're in a great location. We've been doing marketing work for a long time, like they've invested heavily in marketing and branding, and like, things that are going to make them more money. And, you know, when we started working with them, I think they're 7 million this year, they're going to do 2.2, which is fantastic.
Dave Valentine 33:16
But you know what, there's, and the guy that owns it's like, super smart, and like a great guy. He's one of my very big friends.
And he also gets lucky breaks. Because we all do.
Yeah, so what do you what do you think? Jan? Just totally Shifting gears to think it's gonna be fun. What? What do you think we're up to as humanity here? Like, what are we doing in life? You know, like, what is this thing? Because again, like, you know, when we talked about doing this podcast in the interview, like one of the things that we never talked about as business owners is like, what is your philosophy, your religious beliefs, like your thought about what we're doing? And it had, but it has such a meaningful impact on how you engage with the world and your beliefs have changed
dramatically, and your less probably will continue and they probably continue to change but but your I also watched you go and myself as well go from being like wicked, wicked, wicked, stressed out with different religious beliefs to being way less stressed out, even if we were still stressed out while you were owning the businesses and stuff. But I'm just curious, like, I would love for you to talk about what do you think we're up to? What you do? Yeah, like what? Because we're all doing this thing together. And it when we pretend like it's it's alone.
And the reality is, we're all like, in the same anthill. And it's like, what are we doing? Yeah, no, yeah, I think.
Janice Townsend 34:53
I think the ultimate game is joy.
Presents. Yeah, learning to be
If precedent is what is and like chasing after joy as much as you can, and I think in being content with where we're at, even if it's in a stressful time, or even if we're working, you know, like a minimum wage job, or even if we've just sold our business, and we don't know what's next, like, wherever we are learning that we already have it all. Yeah, and there's nothing else outside of us that can add to that.
And so I think that's what I've been finding is like, we chase all these things, thinking they're gonna bring us happiness. Get them. It's like, oh, it's just another thing. She's just a thing. And so we can sit and be still and find contentment and, and really simple things like watching the birds outside the sun on our face, or like the community of good people in our lives, or, you know, a great cup of coffee, or an amazing glass of wine. Like if we can find joy in the simple things. Man, what a wonderful life we're gonna have.
Yeah, I think, for me, I'm,
I am. I'm a recovering addict of meaning making.
Dave Valentine 36:12
Yes, they say more about that, please, because that, that that's good.
Janice Townsend 36:16
I used to look for patterns and meaning and everything. And if I could just weave a little bit of meaning into my life. Yeah, I could see where things were going. And I could see how it all works together and weave some kind of like story or narrative around that. I'd be like, Okay, we're gonna be okay. Because it's hard thing. I didn't matter. It's because of this reason. Yeah. And then just learning how to let that go. And learning how to be like, yeah, maybe it doesn't mean anything. Maybe it's just a hard season. Maybe it's just, maybe it's just a wonderful season. And it doesn't mean that she was about to trap, you know, right. That's another one. That's like expecting bad things to happen. But just being present, and like, the very simple things that are, like, for me, that's where the joy is, how do you cultivate that? Because there's a lot of I mean, because it's like, there's a lot of people that are like, that sounds cool. I just need to make a sale this month. Or like, for sure. You know, like, I remember, when I was in the middle of trying to sell my business last summer. And, you know, it's an adventure, you never know what's gonna happen and what,
you know, there's some ups and some downs. And we had gotten several offers and looks like something's gonna happen. And then it didn't, right. And I ended up in the exact place I didn't think I wanted to be, which was managing a coffee shop like my manager had left, I needed to step back into that role for a while. I was in Texas in the heat of the July summer, which is, for me, the worst thing ever. And
I was having to deal with all the little piddly things that I felt like I shouldn't have to deal with anymore. Yeah. And I remember when morning I got woken up at like, 630 from a barista just like, hey, been exposed to COVID I can't come in today. And I looked at the schedule while I was still laying in bed, and I was like, oh, there's no one to go. And like, it's this is me like, this is like, okay, and instead of being angry about it, and being like, I can't believe I have to go work stupid
to this thing and freaking COVID and all of that was like, you know, today all I'm gonna do like for eight hours, I'm just gonna make coffee and talk to people. Yeah. And I drove to work. And I had like, this moment of, like, extreme okayness with what was this like this is? And I thought, Man, I'm literally doing the same. I did not want to do I am.
I am managing the shop working barista show is taking your recall, it's hot as hell out. I'm melting my car. And I'm smiling. What is wrong?
Because it was like, Man, I am okay. Right. i It's fine. Like, yeah, there's joy in this too. And I think sometimes when we're confronted with the things that we think are the worst case scenario, and it's like, this is fine. This is this can be good to like, and we stop attaching to these desires that we have. And we just enjoy what is. For me, that's that's where the juice is, like, that's where the goodness is, and it takes sometimes being disappointed. Or getting sick, or, you know, having a bad outcome or having a weird thing happened in relationships. And it was it takes all those things to get us to be president. So
that's my philosophy.
Dave Valentine 39:35
That's good. That's great. That's, that's reasonable. Yeah, I think, you know, it's one of the things that you and I have talked about a lot is like, there's no good and bad it's just what's happening and you know, as as I, like every business owner ever have ups and downs and great things and sad things and whatever it like
it's one of those, and I keep telling this to your crew. I'm like
Do we just do what we do? Yeah, you know, like, just show up and just play the game and play it impeccably play it fiercely. And just realize that like, you're still playing Monopoly. You know what I mean? Like, it's just monopoly. It's fine. And you may lose this round. Yeah. And that's okay. Yeah, there's next row.
Janice Townsend 40:23
But can you play it? And that's really the game that we're up to. Yeah. And like, I think even I've learned that too. With money, like cheese. Yeah, after security, when it comes to how much money's in the bank account is like, silliness. Yeah, because when we had nothing in the bank account, I was worried. And now we have something in the bank account, and I'm still sometimes get worried. And it's like, oh, the number changes. But the worry is like, the worry is always the worry is gonna be there. Or maybe it won't be there. We just need to learn that. We're, there's never gonna be enough to save us. You don't mean, right. But yeah, I'm just accepting, like, yeah, that's there right now and might be gone tomorrow, and control that there might be another pandemic, there might be a recession, there might be whatever, and you know what we're gonna be okay. Like, yeah, and I still okay. And that's the part that I wish I could go and steal in myself from a long time ago. Of like, hey, hey, dude.
Dave Valentine 41:24
It's all gonna work out.
Janice Townsend 41:27
You know, but don't you think you needed to struggle through that? Like, didn't that make you who you are?
Dave Valentine 41:33
I think that just like everything in my life, it has been you, I took something that was really challenging, and it's been used for my growth and development. And with that, though, I was creating my own hell. Yeah, you know, it has to be this way. I have to make this much money. I have to make this successful. And I have a very similar story to yours. Like, I definitely was trying to prove something to myself. First. We were we were like, 20. Yeah, I was 25. When I started my first we have to do, right. Well,
you started popping out kids. And that was like, a whole nother thing. But yeah, I mean, like, No, but you're right, though. Jam. Like, it's, it's like a developmental necessity in some way. I think. Yeah, we were talking about the sewers. Like, you know, your 20s you're figuring out who you are. Yeah. And then your 30s you're like, This is who I am. Yes. Deal with it. Yeah.
But then reduce box and suck it, you know, like, this is why I am. I do think that that makes a big difference for how you show up to yourself. I show up for business. So when you think about, like,
continuing to not do a thing.
I mean, you're you're doing things you're doing yoga training, you're doing pottery, you're writing you're painting you're, you know, going to lunches, you're, you're doing things like you're you know,
having Moon circles.
Janice Townsend 43:01
Really weird.
Dave Valentine 43:03
I mean, we're both really weird. Like, just lean in like it's who we are.
I, as you do those things.
Are you telling yourself not yet? Like, don't go do the next thing.
Janice Townsend 43:20
I think something's happened in about the last month that I feel like if the right opportunity were to show up, I would drive it. Oh, interesting. But I also don't want to dive into something just because I'm feeling restless. Yeah, and commit my, you know, five, next five or 10 years to something that's maybe just a good idea. Sure. Has to be the right. Good idea. Yeah. And I'm not sure what that's going to be. And so I've been, I'll have these ideas. And I'll kind of let them simmer and I'll talk to friends about them and kind of do that whole thing. And then I'll see if it's still interesting a week or two later. And it's still interesting, a week or two later, maybe I'll be a little more research, we will look into it a little bit more. Maybe I'll think about how that would go with the lifestyle that I want to have moving forward and all of that, but yeah, I think
the purposeful nothingness that I that I had, that was kind of 2022 Yeah, and 2022. And I was like, we're not doing anything until 2023. That's all right. And now we're gonna 2023 I'm doing some things, but none of them are like, right gonna be hugely time consuming things that I find. Yeah, it's just like, oh, this is interesting. I want to know more about that. Or Yeah, well, I just wanted to try pottery. Let's make some make some bowls. You know, that's
tactile.
And so, not gonna go off and be a potter. Like,
I had a blast making some bowls. Yeah. And I think not everything has to be. I think we have this tendency in the entrepreneurship community to like, if you're good at something, to make it a business, right. You're interested and interested in something to make it a business? Yeah, maybe it's just a hobby. It's just like a way to relax. Right? So
Oh, yeah, I was thinking for like, maybe I'm gonna be a writer, maybe I'm gonna like things. I think that might just be a hobby. And that's Yeah. Which is lovely. Yeah, it's a great hobby. And I've been learning a lot about myself and digging into my past. And you know, it's been good. But yeah, I don't, I don't know, I'm not purposely not doing anything. I think I'm just waiting for the right thing to show up, but also not expecting it to like, hit me in the face, you know, with its obviousness. Like, I'm gonna
start just asking questions and talking to people. And I think I think the thing that I miss the most right now is like, the community of the coffee shops that I had. And I like, seeing people and having these lovely interactions every day. And so I know, whatever I do next, I need to be around people. And just kind of oh, that's the worst thing like physically being, like, I don't want to couldn't do digital. Yeah. So that's, that's, that's interesting.
Dave Valentine 45:57
I'm like, Yeah, I can, I mean, I enjoy the community building pieces that I do. And I also am, like, so contented just to,
like, hang out. And, and I think that that's one of the things that I've learned about myself is I'm like, Yeah, I'm definitely more of like, the, as I get older, I'm, like, more and more introverted. You know, and I'm like, maybe I would just like to walk around the garden. And write today. Like, that sounds really nice. To have that option. Yeah. If you need an introvert day, or you need, yeah, you know, to have that option. Just be home per day. Yeah, that's really great. And I saw, like, I could never do the coffee shop. Because it'd be like, Ooh, you got to be in the off, like in the space, especially when you first get started. And you're like making sure that customers are being taken care of, and you're like, following what you need to follow. And
yeah, and I think that's the interesting thing is like, I was talking about it with another mutual friend of ours, and they were just saying, like, a lot of times you don't think about the business that you're like, starting, you're like, This is a great idea, right? And then you don't think about all the realities of the great idea, but like, works. And this is somebody that like,
seven figure business, it works, you know, and they're like, Yeah, I just don't, but there's a lot of things that they don't love about it. Yeah, you know,
Janice Townsend 47:25
and I think that's the benefit of like, having this privilege of maybe having a second career at this point in my life is I know what I like now. And I know, like, what's fun for me, and what's life giving for me and what my body needs, and like all of that, and so I get to create, whatever is next around those those needs and desires. And I don't have to like, make it work. Yeah, no, like, yeah, so that's, I see that as a huge privilege. And I feel very lucky. There's a Yeah, no, I totally agree. There's a book that I've been reading that I think that you would appreciate, by Arthur Brooks. And it's called from strength to strength. And he got it a few months back, which is,
Dave Valentine 48:13
I don't know if you've ever had this, but like, sometimes I'll be like, I need that book. And I don't know why. Yes.
And, and you get into it, you're like, I still don't really know why. But then as you read it, through time, it starts to make sense, because you're checking your subconscious knew that you were changed or had changed before your conscious mind is caught up. Yes. And so I started reading this book six months ago, I've heard of this book we we've talked about, we probably did, okay. But it's basically like this idea of like, when do you there are different times at different points, where you stop being able to innovate in your sphere, and like, so he goes through and talks about, like, your prime time to innovate as a physicist is like 24. And anything after 24 It's really hard to come up with any sort of innovation. Interesting, you can codify a lot of things and like, examine your, and he does this with all different sorts of stuff. But there's like different ways for different people to achieve great results. The reason why he wrote this book, though, was there's this long study that's been going on for 100 years with Harvard, almost it started in the 1930s. So we're like getting close. And this study is about happiness. And so it goes back to the joy piece. Yeah. So what they figured out was people everyone in the US reaches like their peak happiness between 55 and 60. They know some stuff because they know some stuff usually have a little bit more money than kids around the house. Usually not everybody but usually.
But then there's a big divergence between people that
continue to stay that level of happiness and people that stop, and that the only group that that starts to see declining happiness after 60 are high achievers, Oh, interesting. And so
there's this thing we're like, to your point from the beginning of the chat reading is like, you get to a place where you're like, wait, I can't achieve anymore. I can't, I can't keep the momentum, I can't be the doing, I just have to be the binning. And when you can't achieve at a high level through, like, sheer grit, like we did in our 20s was just like, wear dresses do with it, you know, like, and it's like, you can't do that anymore. People start to really struggle. And so I sort of read his books. I was like, I know that I'm one of those people
Janice Townsend 50:46
that like, if I get to later, I'm gonna be like, Man, what is this all about? I'm gonna feel sad. And so now as I'm like, moving towards selling to businesses, and just like, his whole point was the people that find happiness in this space are people that start a new career. They they launched something, or they start going from, I'm going to achieve to I'm gonna mentor, you know, like, they're like, my job is to give back. Yeah. And you have to find meaning in new ways. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Cuz before it was, you know, it's about making a name. And it's about doing the big thing and exceeding people's expectations, which honestly are very low. Like, yeah, most women in the south expectations are, like, pretty easy to exceed them. But still, I don't Yeah, it's you have to shift from all of those things to just what's what's gonna bring me joy? What's what's good for the world? What's good for humanity to flourish? You know? Yeah, you're asking bigger questions. And you're okay, with a little bit less. Yeah. And I also think it's an Shigeo like to have the realization that you had where you go from. My goal is to achieve, to conquer to make more to have more and to be like, Yeah, I'm done playing that game. And you were dealt that game years ago. And then you're like, I'm going to sell it. And so now like, I'm even done with the business owner, thing is my identity. Yeah. And you're, you're going okay, now, my identity just is Jan.
Dave Valentine 52:22
And what does Janice want to do? You know, and? And that is a question that I wish I had asked myself earlier.
Janice Townsend 52:32
Yeah. And you really have to, like, sometimes I reckoned with, why did I start this coffee shop, like I had so much tied up with my identity and my religion and my place in the community, and what I should be doing and what people expected me to do. I don't know if it's actually what I wanted to do. Yeah. And so I think about that now. And I'm, of course, very grateful for the experience. And most of it I loved, and I learned man, talking about going to school. The greatest education you could ever hope to have was owning a business like that. But yeah, I'm like, Man, was that even? Did I want that? Or my ego want that right?
Dave Valentine 53:10
And so yeah, now you get to ask different questions, which is really interesting. That's really interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Well, is there anything else you want to say? Feel good? I say more. I don't know.
I, I love a I love our friendships so much. And I'm so deeply grateful for you in that like,
it's very, very special. And I'm so thankful that I get like a courtside seat to like, watch what you're up to personally, what Matt's up to personally and what you're up to together as a couple. And no thanks.
And like, it's it's
Yeah, I mean, we've we've both had seasons now where one of us has gotten first.
Yeah, and I did that for a long time. I did that for a long time. And I'm, I'm it's really cool. To not have gone first. This tight or like this. There's a go round where like, you did something before I did. And it's really fun to watch you take time and transform
your mindset, which really feels like a transformation of who you are as a person.
Janice Townsend 54:28
Yeah. Yeah. And like that's, I think,
I've known a couple of friends recently that have sold their businesses and like, the number one thing I'm telling people is like, don't have a plan for what you want to do next, just like plan to do nothing for a while and plan to know that that's okay. Yeah.
Yeah, breathe for a little bit. Yes, man. owning a business is hard and you're constantly on high alert all the time, and you don't even realize it. And so when you're not
on high alert anymore, your body actually needs time to like figure out that you're safe now
that you're not you know about to get the phone call that's gonna change the course of your whole day or your whole week or you're not, you know, on the edge of a disaster anymore. And so you get to just relax for a little bit and see what it's like to be a normal human. Yeah. So
I'm excited for that for you.
Dave Valentine 55:24
Thanks. Yeah, it'll be when it happens. Be great time. Yeah.
Well, thanks so much for letting me stay your house. Yeah. And
I love your echoy house is beautiful. And like I told
the group that came over it was like, it looks like a modern art museum. And I walked in and they're like, Oh, my God, it does.
So yeah, well, thanks so much.